An Interview with Grown Homeschooler Amanda Scott

I recently had the opportunity to interview Amanda Scott, a grown homeschooler from Alabama who is also an atheist.  I met Amanda, who is nineteen, on the Freedom From Religion Foundation Facebook page, where Amanda is known for her extensive knowledge of First Amendment caselaw.  Amanda is also the administrator of a Facebook Group called "The Wall of Separation," dedicated to the constitutional principle of the separation of church and state, the Framers' intent, and Supreme Court jurisprudence.


Did you homeschool from early childhood on, or did you have some school experiences along the way?

AS: I attended public school until the fourth grade.

How did you and/or your parents arrive at the decision to homeschool?

AS: My parents decided to homeschool me because of my health.  I had a health problem that required me to go to the doctor at least three times a week which conflicted with my school schedule.  But my parents saw that I did better at home than at school, so they decided to continue to homeschool me for the rest of my school years.

Did your parents have any particular homeschooling philosophy or approach?  Did you ever use a formal curriculum?

AS: At first my parents used a formal homeschooling curriculum with homeschool textbooks, but later on they used an online curriculum and I did most of my studying online on various educational websites.  On a side note, I remember my first homeschool textbooks were published by a Christian company and included a Bible verse question at the end of each chapter. 

Were you raised in a freethinking home, or did you abandon religious ideas somewhere along the way?

AS: I was raised without any religion.  My parents never baptized me, took me to church, or sent me to Sunday school or vacation Bible school.  We never read the Bible.  I am not even sure we owned a Bible!  We celebrated Christmas and Easter as secular holidays.  We always decorated our house with trees, garland, wreaths, mistletoe, Santa Claus, elves, reindeer, and snowmen, but we never put up a nativity scene, an angel, or even a star signifying the Christian origins of Christmas as the birth of Jesus Christ.

However, when I became a teenager, I became interested in learning about religion, and I read the New Testament, the Torah, the Qur'an, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita, the Dhammapada, the Tao Te Ching, the Analects, the Satanic Bible and a number of other religious texts.  But I was not interested in converting to any religion.  I am still not interested in converting to any religion now.  Religion is not for me. 

Some might find it hard to believe that a teenager would do so much reading if it wasn't assigned by a teacher.   How would you respond to those who argue that teenagers need formal incentives (rewards, sanctions, etc.) to learn?

AS: I think, to quote John Holt, that the human animal is a learning animal.   Children are naturally interested in learning.  But when you put children into the traditional public or private schooling system, teach them for eight hours a day, and then assign them homework and prepare them for tests, they lose their natural interest in learning once they leave school.   Fortunately I haven't lost my natural interest in learning.

And how did your parents respond to your researching various religious traditions?

AS: My parents encouraged me to learn about religion.  My mother took me every week to our local Barnes & Noble store and let me browse the Religion & Spirituality section and select a new book on religion.  I recall one interesting experience where I was looking for a copy of the Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey but couldn't find one and my mother asked the Barnes & Noble sales managers if they had any copies left in stock.  Their reaction was priceless!  I became a regular at the book store until it closed down two years ago.  Now I buy all of my books online through websites that sell used textbooks and ex-library books. 

Did you ever find that when you identified yourself as a homeschooler, people assumed you were Christian?

AS: Yes they did, and they still do.  When I tell people I was homeschooled, they assume I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian household where I was taught that Jesus rode on the dinosaurs, but it was the exact opposite.
 
You are very interested in, and knowledgeable about, constitutional law.  When and how did this interest develop?

AS: Last year I discovered the Freedom From Religion Foundation after a local friend reported the city of Bay Minett's "Operation Restore Our Community" program which would have allowed misdemeanor offenders to choose between going to jail or attending church services for a year.  The Freedom From Religion Foundation, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, the American Civil Liberties Union, and other national civil rights groups intervened and put a stop (or at least a halt) to the unconstitutional program.  I became very interested in learning more about the constitutional principle of the separation of church and state.  I began researching the Supreme Court Religion Clause cases like McCollum v. Board of Education, 333 U.S. 203 (1948),  Abington Township School District v. Schempp (consolidated with Murray v. Curlett), 374 U.S. 203 (1963), and Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962).  I also researched Circuit Court cases. 

Unfortunately, because I am not a law student (yet, anyway), I do not have a subscription to professional legal search engines like WestLaw or LexisNexis.  I use scholar.google.com which allows me to search through legal documents including Supreme Court cases and Circuit Court up to about the 1930s.  For the State Court cases predating the 1930s, like State ex rel Weiss v. District Board 76 Wis. 177 (1890) or Board of Education of Cincinnati v. Minor, 23 Ohio St. 211 (1872), I use Google Books which allows me to search through digitally archived copies of case law reports like the South Eastern Reporter or the Reports of Cases Argued and Determined in the Supreme Court of Ohio.  I also bought a used copy of The Bluebook: A Uniform System of Citation and learned how to cite court cases properly, quote judicial opinions, omit quotations, and use signals.  Because I was homeschooled/unschooled, I learned how to teach myself without a formal teacher.  But I understand that I need to have a formal university education and I am hoping to enroll in paralegal studies next year and apply for a legal internship with the Freedom From Religion Foundation in the next couple of years.

You clearly seem to have learned to locate and apply information for yourself.  Are there any other ways in which you see homeschooling as having been advantageous?

AS: Yes.  My parents gave me access to the Internet as young as eight years old.  At a very young age, I developed the skills to efficiently use search engines to find information.  I also developed the skills to create websites by coding HTML, CSS, and JavaScript and create graphics in Photoshop which enabled me to open my own fansite for my favorite band at the age of thirteen.  I think being homeschooled has been advantageous to me because I developed skills that some people have to go to school for.

What, if anything, has been the downside to homeschooling for you, as compared to conventional schooling?

AS: I think the only downside to being homeschooled is anxiety.  I am anxious about going to college after being homeschooled for so many years.  I will have to adapt to sitting in a classroom next to other students listening to a teacher again.  However, my anxiety is only in a school setting.  I don't have any anxiety in any other social setting.

What was it like--and is it like today--being a nonbeliever in Alabama? 

AS: My family and I have done very well in Alabama.  Religion and politics are not topics that come up in our everyday lives.  When someone asks me where I go to church, I just politely respond that I don't go to church.  If someone hands me a religious pamphlet, I just politely accept it and say thank you.  I don't discuss my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) or political views with strangers because it's none of their business.

What do you think are the most important qualities, practices, habits, etc. that secular homeschooling parents should model to their children?

AS: I think Dale McGowan's book Parenting Beyond Belief is a good place to start.  I think the most important quality parents can teach their children is charity, regardless of whether they are religious or secular.  My parents taught me to be charitable by example.  My mother and father would always do random acts of charity, like helping the person in line at the grocery store pay for their groceries when they came up short, or stopping by the side of the road and giving someone a ride when their car broke down, or letting someone stay over at our house when they had nowhere else to go.  When I was a little girl I didn't understand why they did the things they do, but now I understand why they did them.  Charity knows no religion. 


I want to thank Amanda for sharing her experiences and insights, which I hope are as interesting (and encouraging!) to other secular and unschooling/homeschooling parents as they are to me. 

The Unschooling-Atheism Intersection

While What to Tell the Neighbors was still in the conceptual stage, I wondered if it might be problematic to focus on both unschooling and atheism.  After all, not all unschoolers are atheists, and certainly most atheists are not unschoolers.  

Yet for me the two are linked in some important ways. 

First, both unschooling and atheism are significant departures from the typical, not only here in western Kentucky, but in most parts of the United States.  Unschooling atheist families may be viewed as doubly odd and thus must be extra thick-skinned when facing criticism.  Often, they must make a concerted effort to find the support they need to sustain them.  Blogs can be an important part of that support--both for writers and readers!

Second, successful unschooling (generally defined as an approach to homeschooling in which children learn without pre-designed curricula, grading, standardized tests, and other conventions of traditional schooling) requires parents who are convinced that children learn better from love than from fear, from being allowed to explore than from being forced, and from formulating questions than from memorizing someone else's answers.  Thus, unschoolers tend to be people whose worldview is not fundamentalist anything.  While not all of the unschoolers I've encountered identify as atheist, many do identify as atheist, agnostic, humanist, freethinker, skeptic, etc. 

A few months ago, I "met" (in that virtual Facebook way) a young woman who is both an atheist and a grown homeschooler.  Her name is Amanda Scott, she is nineteen years old, and she never fails to dazzle me with her knowledge of constitutional law.  In addition to being an active participant on the Freedom from Religion Foundation's Facebook page, Amanda is the administrator of a Facebook Group called "The Wall of Separation," which is a great source of information on Supreme Court jurisprudence related to the First Amendment.  I thought it would be interesting to interview Amanda to see how her experiences learning outside of a traditional school environment influenced her atheism, and vice versa.  Amanda agreed to the interview, which will be appearing soon as my next post.  If you are an unschooling or homeschooling parent who is raising your child without religion, you won't want to miss this one. 

Boxes Are Good for Presents

One of my children has asked for, and will be receiving tomorrow morning, a toy that is clearly marketed to children of the opposite sex.  I am glad that my child felt it was safe to ask for this toy, but I'm frustrated that these categories of "boy toys" and "girl toys" even exist.  I'm frustrated that I've seen our nearest Target store increasingly segregate the toys into a boy section and a girl section; even the Legos are now on two different aisles.  One of my favorite children's clothing manufacturers, Hanna Andersson, used to make some brightly-colored unisex clothes (baby garments and items like sweatshirts, pajamas, and socks for older kids), but now the entire Hanna catalog is segregated, too, and formerly neutral items contain clear gender signifiers.

I regret some of my parenting decisions, but I don't regret buying my sons dolls they could cuddle and care for.  I don't regret the hours my sons spent make-believing with their sister and our wooden play kitchen, because, as we all know, men cook and eat, too.  I don't regret dressing my daughter in her older brother's hand-me-down pajamas with blue and red stripes, because she loved them, and because girls can look fabulous in colors other than pink.  I don't regret buying her Hot Wheels when she asked for them, or supporting her decision to wear pants last Easter because a skirt might interfere with her ability to be fully competitive in the front-yard egg hunt.  I don't regret saying, "The rainbow belongs to everyone," each time a stereotype about "girl colors" and "boy colors" found its way into our conversations. 

If anyone makes an issue about my child receiving this particular toy for Christmas, I am going to challenge that person.  Because I would deeply regret missing an opportunity to point out how placing people in stupid boxes prevents them from experiencing all of their humanity.

And if I'm in the mood, I might also sing a horribly off-key version of this song.  (If you listen, please don't miss the last verse.)

The Atheist Closet

I'm a big fan of the Out Campaign promoted by evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins.  The campaign urges atheists to publicly identify themselves in order to counter negative stereotypes about atheism, to help atheists locate each other, and to increase recognition of nonbelievers as a political force.  Still, I understand why many are reluctant.  One need only read the comments left after some of my posts to appreciate the disdain the word atheist brings forth. 

And yet, my recent activism has confirmed what I long suspected: there are dozens of other atheists (and agnostics) in my neck of the woods.  Unfortunately, only some of these people are willing to be open about their lack of belief in the supernatural.  The open ones I know are mostly under the age of thirty.

I don't have any particular ideas about the best way for someone to come out of the atheist closet.  I came out fairly gradually.  This fit my situation, because my transition from Catholic to atheist was a gradual one.  Yet it's clear to me that no matter how gradually one may arrive at atheism, the destination may come as a shock to many.

In the several years that my family has lived in our town, we've never been church-goers.  When someone would push the issue with me, I would simply say, "I'm (or we're) not religious."  But it's now clear to me that when I used the phrase "not religious," some people thought, "Oh--she prefers to get it straight from the bible," and others thought, "There's still hope." 

Revealing one's atheism to a religious parent is often an unavoidable part of the coming-out process.  I can say, from agonizing experience, that just because you haven't attended church in thirteen years and were observed reading The God Delusion on your last holiday visit doesn't mean your mother is necessarily prepared for the a-word.  But if you're lucky, after you've both cried a lot, she'll still love you and your kiddos anyway.

I came out as an atheist, to a few people at a time, because my own sense of integrity demanded it.  And I'm not very good at pretending.  I became even more out when I started blogging about atheism in June.  My reasons for the blog were many, but one was the mixed messages I felt I was sending my children.  On the one hand, I was telling them I was comfortable with my atheism; on the other, I was going too far out of my way to avoid discussing my unbelief with others.  I realized this when one of my children kept asking me if I was sure the First Amendment protected my statements that I didn't believe in God, and if it did, why I was so afraid to tell anyone outside our house.   Homeschool Atheist Momma Karen captures my thoughts perfectly when she says, "I'm fighting for atheist openness so my kids can take it for granted."

For readers considering coming out of the atheist closet--or for those who are simply interested in the different forms the process takes--I have stories for you.  Click on the links to read about:

Teresa MacBain, who was active as a Methodist minister when she came out at a national atheist convention;

Jerry DeWitt, a bible-belt pastor who accidentally outed himself with a Facebook photo;

Walter Petit, the president of Western Kentucky University's Secular Student Alliance, who came out to his mother while still a young teen;

Leanna, another Kentucky homeschooling mother who didn't want her children to think atheist was a dirty word.

I also welcome readers' own coming-out stories, as well as your thoughts about the Out Campaign.

My Freethought Radio Interview, and a Memorable School Board Meeting

Last weekend, I was interviewed on Freethought Radio, a program hosted by the Freedom from Religion Foundation co-presidents Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker.  We talked about the Muhlenberg County Schools' literature distribution policy, going all the way back to last fall when the FFRF convinced the board of education to end its practice of allowing members of the Gideons International to distribute bibles to fifth-graders during instructional time.  I recalled the details of my discovery that the board had, at its May 14 meeting, unanimously voted "to approve plans for collaboration and efforts to support the Gideon's [sic] organization," and my failed attempts to convince the board to prohibit all outside groups from distributing literature to students.  I explained my decision to request, along with the Western Kentucky University Secular Student Alliance, a presence at afterschool events (as long as the Gideons were permitted access), and described our experience "tabling" at Muhlenberg High School (which I also wrote about in my last post).

The Freethought Radio podcast is now available here.  I'm sorry about the hiss in the background, and I'm going to ask the FFRF tech folks if something can be done about it. 

In other news, at the Muhlenberg County Board of Education's November 12 meeting, Western Kentucky University SSA president and Muhlenberg North High School graduate Walter Petit asked the board to end its practice of opening meetings with prayer, and to close afterschool events to all outside groups.  While a portion of Petit's remarks made the evening news and the local papers, some interesting and important details of the meeting were omitted.

First, the meeting was opened with a prayer, led by board member Jerry Winters, that may have been the most sectarian and divisive prayer in board history.  The idea seemed to be to throw in the word "Christian" as often as possible, and to imply that anyone opposed to prayer at meetings could not possibly care about the children of Muhlenberg County as much as Winters.

Second, while SSA's Walter Petit was still at the podium after addressing the board, Winters stated, "If I had things my way, we wouldn't even be teaching that we come from monkeys and lizards!"  So there you have it: at a board meeting during which the importance of getting students "college ready" was frequently mentioned, a member of the board of education expressed his desire to remove the teaching of evolution from the science curriculum. 

Without missing a beat, Petit responded that Winters' statement revealed "such scientific ignorance" that he had no business serving on a board of education.  I think that the Kentucky Science Teachers Association--whose Position Statement on Evolution readers may want to check out for themselves--would agree.

The Bigger Picture

One week ago, I (acting as an individual member of the Freedom from Religion Foundation) and three members of the Western Kentucky University Secular Student Alliance sat behind a table during Muhlenberg High School's Parent Night to distribute literature from the FFRF and SSA.  It was a positive experience.  School personnel were friendly.  Approximately two dozen people stopped by our table to pick up literature, ask questions, or simply chat. There were no unpleasant confrontations; in fact, several people remarked that they were glad to see us there.  Some of these people were Christians.

Currently all nonprofit groups have the opportunity to distribute literature at afterschool events in Muhlenberg County.  As I mentioned in previous posts, other districts that have considered such policies as a way to continue bible distributions have discovered  pagans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Unitarian Universalists waiting in the wings to take advantage of the open forum.  Under such a policy, Muslims, Catholics, Buddhists, Mormons, and Scientologists, among others, must also be allowed.
 
Although the SSA and I have received permission to distribute in the elementary and middle schools, we are still deciding whether to proceed.  We’re honestly not comfortable having a presence at that age level.  We would prefer that the school board rescind its open forum policy and not allow any outside groups to distribute literature on school property.  We think that public schools should remain neutral on such matters.  However, if the schools continue to allow the Gideons or other religious groups in, we understand that our presence may be encouraging to secular students by showing them that they are not alone.  

The SSA and I remain firm in our conviction that the school board should end its practice of beginning school board meetings with prayer.  Such prayer—often distinctly Christian in form—is not only divisive, but unconstitutional.  The United States Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals in Coles Coles v. Cleveland Board of Education (1999) found prayer at school board meetings a violation of the Establishment Clause. 

While my last post drew some support, it also attracted much criticism from those who remain convinced that school endorsement of a specific form of Christianity is not only acceptable, but desirable.  Some are unwilling to see the difference between protected personal religious expression and religious endorsement by school officials.  The many judicial decisions striking down such endorsement point out that among its dangers are the marginalization and mistreatment of minority group members.

I am going to end with two stories that illustrate these dangers.  The first is of a teenager in Alabama who founded that state's only high school "Freethinkers Club."  Duncan Henderson first tried to establish such a club in junior high, but says the principal of the junior high prevented it.  Henderson also received death threats from fellow students.  He was finally successful when he moved on to high school because he had a principal who was not only willing to follow the law and allow the club to meet, but to serve as the club's sponsor despite considering himself a devout Christian.  The principal has a good relationship with Duncan's freethinking family (he calls them "just very nice folks") and says that he's been impressed with the quality of the club's discussions.

The second story hits closer to home.  It was sent to me by a former Muhlenberg County high school student who gave me permission to share it minus a name and some other identifying information.  I think it's important to note that this is one of many such letters I have received from former Muhlenberg County students.

I'm pretty sure we've never met, but I lived in Muhlenberg my entire life before graduating high school and moving to --- to attend ----.  I am writing just to tell you simply thank you.  I stumbled across your blog and was shocked by your efforts. Growing up and attending school there I often felt quite alienated since my parents were poor and we did not attend church.  Since I was never exposed continuously to a church environment I quickly discovered I was an atheist, before I even knew that such a concept had a name.  But, my discovery I felt was in vain since none shared my belief, let alone dare respect it.  I remember being in 11th grade and my teacher asking my class to raise their hands if they went to church, what a question I thought, this is school, you can't ask stuff like this, but with a quick glance around the room I discovered I was the only one with a hand not raised and my classmates glared on at me as if I was a demon.  The alienation and ridicule I received for first not attending church and then affirming my atheist status was unmatched.  I had teachers all throughout my schooling try to ILLEGALLY force children into believing, from reading the bible in class to religious themed schoolwork.  I felt alone in my battle to not believe.  Luckily I managed to get away from Muhlenberg and into college where I discovered an array of beliefs and respect to go along with it. I truly believe in your effort. . . . I graduated from high school not that long ago!  Please don't let anyone discourage you or try to stop you in this campaign.  I know that there were many more like me that had to simply play along until they were old enough to be out on their own but I refused; if they get to openly voice their beliefs why can't I?  Students need an environment where their beliefs can be challenged, regardless what that belief may be, it helps us grow as people and respect others that don't believe the same as us.  This was unheard when I was in school and I am sure there are people feverishly campaigning against you but like I said please continue doing what you're doing!

Don't all Muhlenberg County students deserve a safe, supportive educational environment?  And don't we want to be the kind of citizens who provide it?

Your Friendly Neighborhood Atheist: Coming to a School Near You

As readers may have guessed, I didn't receive a single response to the questions I asked of our Muhlenberg County school board candidates.  *(UPDATE: Since this posting, the letter I sent to Darrell Bowers has been returned marked "no such number, unable to forward," although the address on the envelope was the one listed on the Secretary of State's website.)*  This is disappointing, and I can't help but wonder aloud why all of the candidates were unwilling to respond.  My guess is that it seemed politically safer not to.  But how can one claim to be a voice for local citizens when he or she refuses to answer, even partially, some very earnest questions asked respectfully by a local citizen? 

Sigh.

In other news, I--your friendly neighborhood atheist--will soon be appearing at some of Muhlenberg County's public schools.  Specifically, I will be distributing literature from the Freedom from Religion Foundation at school-sponsored events.  This is the somewhat prolonged outcome of my accidental discovery this spring that the Gideons, booted from Muhlenberg County classrooms in 2011, were about to be allowed back into the schools (at afterschool events instead of during class time).  The complete history of my involvement is here, here, and here.

This is the email that I sent to school principals on October 15:

Dear [Principal]:

I am writing to request permission to distribute literature at [school name] during upcoming afterschool events.  I have been informed by Superintendent Dale Todd that any nonprofit organization may distribute literature at reading nights, open houses, and other official afterschool functions.  I am a local member of the Freedom from Religion Foundation, a national nonprofit group dedicated to the constitutional principle of the separation of church and state and to educating the public on matters relating to nontheism.

Please send me a list of the remaining events/dates during this school year that are available for this purpose.  I intend to distribute the Freedom from Religion Foundation publications Just Pretend: A Freethought Book for Children—a fun book that allows children of all ages to explore myths like Santa Claus and compare them with ideas like the existence of God—and Godless: How an Evangelical Preacher Became One of America’s Leading Atheists.  I will also be handing out bookmarks and "nontracts" promoting nontheism. The links that follow provide more information on these publications.

https://ffrf.org/shop/books/just-pretend-a-freethought-book-for-children https://ffrf.org/shop/books/godless-how-an-evangelical-preacher-became-one-of-america-s-leading-atheists
https://ffrf.org/shop/nontracts

Thanks in advance for your assistance.  I look forward to hearing from you.  

Sincerely,
Suzanne Lamb

The request was granted by all of the principals who received it, and depending on the school, I was either assigned an upcoming event or given a choice of events to attend.  (One middle school principal said I would have to wait until next fall's open house, as his school didn't have any other suitable events this year.)

A separate request to distribute literature, submitted by Western Kentucky University's Secular Student Alliance, was also granted.

I want to commend the school principals and the superintendent for making good on the school board's claim that when it voted to "approve plans for collaboration and efforts to support the Gideons [sic] organization" at the May 14 board meeting, it was actually creating a limited open forum that would allow any nonprofit group to distribute literature at afterschool functions. 

As anyone who regularly follows these types of stories can tell you, this is not how things usually turn out.  Many school districts maintain longstanding, privileged arrangements with the Gideons or other evangelical groups until someone complains; then officials say that, silly people, anyone can distribute literature, while crossing their fingers (or praying) that no groups representing viewpoints other than their own actually take them up on the offer.  As I noted in an earlier post, two North Carolina school boards decided to can literature distributions altogether after local residents tested so-called "open" policies by asking to distribute pagan literature.

If local residents are unhappy about my, or the Secular Student Alliance's, appearances at Muhlenberg County school functions, they can ask the board to craft a policy that prohibits all outside groups from distributing literature at school events.  School districts are in no way required by law to establish limited open forums.

While the Muhlenberg County school board has made much progress in complying with the law as it pertains to religion in the schools, it still has one practice to address.  The board's tradition of beginning school board meetings with prayer is in direct conflict with the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals' ruling in Coles Coles v. Cleveland Board of Education (1999), which found the practice to be a violation of the Establishment Clause.  As Kentucky is in the Sixth Circuit, that decision is considered binding.  Neither asking a student to lead the prayer, nor reminding those in attendance that the prayer is voluntary, makes the practice permissible.

I am so grateful for those friends and acquaintances--some of them Christians--who support my involvement with this issue.  And to my new atheist, agnostic, and freethinking friends in Muhlenberg and surrounding counties: your presence strengthens me. 

**UPDATE**

I am switching to moderated comments for this blog--at least for the time being.  This means that I will be reviewing comments before they are posted.  I am making this change because a few recent comments, which I have deleted, crossed a very obvious line of decency.